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Election 2004 Federal Leaders Debate Excerpts on Life and Family Issues

Excerpts on abortion (“right to choose”), homosexuality, same-sex marriage, the charter

Participants in the June 15 English debate were:
Gilles Duceppe (Bloc Quebecois)
Stephen Harper (Consrvatives)
Jack Layton (NDP)
Paul Martin (Liberals)

FIRST EXCERPT:

Question from Jack Layton to Stephen Harper: Are you going to stand by if a free vote in Parliament takes away a women’s right to choose? Are you going to stand by if the rights of same-sex couples, lesbians and gays are put at the back of the bus and do absolutely nothing, hiding behind a free vote, or are you willing to take a position? I find this hiding behind free votes to be quite shocking from somebody hoping to lead in this country.

Harper: Let me be very clear on the positions I’ve have taken on that. I want there to be no misunderstanding. I’ve said repeatedly, that I will not, that my Conservative government will not be tabling any legislation impacting in any way a woman’s right to choose. Likewise, I fully support the equality rights of gay men and lesbians in Canadian society. I thing that the place we disagree is on the traditional definition of marriage and whether that should be respected.

Layton: Mr. Harper, what if someone brings forward a law that actually comes before parliament? You always counter by saying the government wouldn’t do it, but what if somebody put forward a proposed law that said a woman’s right to choose should be removed? Would you override a decision of the House? Would you take some leadership? Would you hide behind these free votes?

Harper: I won’t be supporting that kind of legislation.

Martin: Well, let me just pick up on that. The fact is that your co-leader, er, co-founder, Mr. Peter McKay, said that your unwillingness to basically guarantee minority rights is the equivalent of a nuclear bomb. The fact of the matter is I asked you yesterday “will you refuse to use the notwithstanding clause” and what you’re saying to us is that you will allow fundamental rights to be determined by the whim of a political party or maybe by the leader because you will refuse to guarantee rights that are in the charter.

Harper: I haven’t said that at all.

Martin: That, Mr. Harper is fundamentally wrong.

Harper: Mr. Martin, what I’ve said is that what I understand is that the original purpose of the notwithstanding clause that Mr. Trudeau agreed to and even suggested be used on occasion, and that there are times – it is different from the American system, we have times where we give Parliament some discretion if it thinks the courts are terribly, terribly wrong. Let me give you an example

Martin: you’ve given us an example, you would take away a woman’s right to choose.

Harper: No I would not Mr. Martin,

Martin: The fact is that you would allow that vote to..

Harper: Absolutely would not. We have the same positions on private members’ legislation. We’re using your system on private members’ business.

Martin: Would you use the notwithstanding clause in the case of a woman’s right to choose? Would you protect it?

Harper: I will not have legislation limiting a woman’s right to choose Mr. Martin. I said that but let me go to a case where I would consider using the notwithstanding clause. Let me talk about an example where the notwithstanding clause might be appropriate. We’ve had repeated decisions and acts of your government on trying to declare child pornography having artistic merit or public good, court decisions that limit our ability to stop the dissemination of child pornography. If I can’t do through ordinary legislation, I will do that to protect the rights of children. But Mr. Martin, let me turn to the main subject, because you bring forward these rights issues to avoid the critical issues of scandal. Let’s go back to Mr. Duceppe’s question Mr. Martin.

Martin: I brought forth these rights issues because these are fundamental to our democracy. In a nation of immigrants such as we are, if we’re not prepared to protect minority rights then in fact we are saying that our values do not count. Mr. Harper had said that sexual orientation is not protected under the Charter. He is wrong. That means that somebody could be fired because they were gay.

Harper: We don’t support that at all.

Martin: Mr. Harper would take away a woman’s right to choose. That is wrong.

Harper: You keep throwing…


LATER, SECOND EXCERPT:

Duceppe (to Martin): On the same-sex couples marriage, I know that you supporting it. I know that Stephen Harper is against that but he said he will respect the dissident… I’d like to know your own opinion Mr. Martin. What do you think of that?

Martin: The fact is that there are three courts, the court of Ontario, the court of British Columbia and the court of Quebec that have basically decided that. I made my position very clear. This is a question of rights and when it is a question of rights the charter must predominate. That will apply in every single instance.

Layton: You are trying to avoid taking a clear position. What is your opinion? You are hiding behind the charter. You are saying you won’t allow it to be discussed and voted on in parliament. Why won’t you allow this to be voted on in parliament? What are you afraid of?

Martin: Hiding behind the charter. I can’t believe that. The fact is that the charter is one of the fundamental pillars of our democracy.

Harper: These are contentious and complex matters. I’m not sure we can reduce every one of these questions to a question of absolute rights of somebody over someone else. We have in this country, Mr. Martin, you talk about minorities. Frankly, most new Canadians, most minority groups come to this country with a pretty high regard for the traditional institution of marriage. They’re some of the people who are strongest in defence of this. These are people who don’t harbour racism or anything else against their fellow Canadians. They simply have a different opinion than you and a couple of judges on the definition of marriage and I remind you Mr. Martin it was in the last election, it was only a couple of years ago, you had exactly the same position that I have and now you condemn it and you condemn it at every …

Martin: When new Canadians come to this country there is no doubt they have different opinions but one of the things they want most is freedom to exercise their rights. The charter is incredibly important to the nature of the country that they have come to and its very important for them.

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