All articles from August 4, 2018


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Abuse victim forced to share room at women’s shelter with ‘trans’ man

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By Lianne Laurence

TORONTO, August 4, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) — A Canadian woman has filed a human rights complaint alleging she had to share a room in a shelter for recovering women addicts with a biological man “transitioning” to a woman.

To make matters worse, when she sought advice on her legal rights, Kristi Hanna was told by Ontario’s Human Rights Legal Support Centre she was potentially violating the law by referring to the “trans” woman as a man, the National Post reported Thursday.

Hanna launched a Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario complaint against the Jean Tweed Center, which runs Palmerston House, after allegedly spending two nights in the same room as a biological man.

The 37-year-old former paramedic has “been struggling with the lingering effects of sexual abuse and resulting problems with addiction to alcohol and cocaine,” reported the National Post’s Joseph Brean.

Hanna alleges in her complaint the shelter “admitted a male bodied transgender into the safety of my home, bedroom and safe spaces,” and this caused her “stress, anxiety, rape flashbacks, symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder and sleep deprivation.”

She had been living at Palmerston House for seven months when on July 20, the “trans woman” was assigned to her room, which has two beds about five feet apart, Hanna told the Post.

She described the “trans woman” as in his late 20s, with facial hair, chest hair, and large combat boots, and told the Post he spoke at a community dinner of having a former wife, a pregnant fiancée, and was overheard describing some unidentified women as “hot” and his preference for Latina women.

Hanna, who says she’s an “active ally in the LGBTQ community,” said the other residents were upset as well.

“All of us were completely upset and flabbergasted, pretty much, and instantly all full of fear. They won’t even allow a man on the property without permission by the staff and all the residents. And we had no pre-warning of any of this. There was never any discussions. It was never mentioned. We were all just blindsided,” Hanna said.

“Everyone in the house has had at some point male-enforced trauma. This is not about discrimination, this is about the safety of male-enforced trauma victims.”

Hanna said staff told her: “We’re all about inclusion and it’s unfortunate that you feel this way… Deal with it or leave.”

After two nights that “were hell for me,” Hanna left the shelter indefinitely and has been staying with friends since then.

Moreover, an advisor with the Human Rights Legal Support Centre, which advises potential human rights complainants, told Hanna she could be illegally discriminating by using male pronouns to refer to the trans “woman.”

“What you’ve told me is potentially discriminatory and potentially a violation of the law, and that individual may file against you in the future, and our role is to keep those conflicts of interest in mind,” the advisor said, before ending the call.

Lucy Hume, outgoing executive director of the Jean Tweed Centre, told the National Post in a statement the center is “fully aware of the requirements under the Ontario Human Rights Code.”

“With respect to accommodating trans women, we do not discriminate; nor do we impose modifications with respect to accommodation,” Hume wrote.

“We do, however, do our best to meet the needs of all parties affected in a way that complies with the requirements of shelter standards and trauma-informed practice.”

Renu Mandhane, Chief Commissioner of the Ontario Human Rights Commission, told the National Post women’s shelters generally have the right to restrict their accommodation to women.

“A trans person should have access to the shelter that matches their lived gender identity,” she said. “However, this does not necessarily require that a cis and trans woman share the same bedroom. An appropriate balancing of the rights of both women may require that one of the women be provided with non-shared accommodation.”

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Diocese of Lincoln admits misconduct by influential former vocations director

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By Lisa Bourne

LINCOLN, Nebraska, August 4, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) – The Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska, has acknowledged reports of misconduct by its deceased former vocations director, after an op-ed published by a former priest alleged the sexual behavior and other scandal involving the director.

The diocese did not address the allegations from Peter Mitchell, posted August 1 at Rod Dreher’s blog on The American Conservative, but said in a statement that the diocese “is aware of past reports of conduct contrary to prudence and moral law by Monsignor Leonard Kalin, deceased in 2008.”

“The diocese addressed these allegations of misconduct directly with Msgr. Kalin during his time in priestly ministry,” the statement said. The diocese added that is not aware that Kalin had broken any civil laws.

“The Diocese of Lincoln is also aware of past reports of conduct contrary to prudence and moral law by former Diocese of Lincoln priest Peter Mitchell,” the statement said further. “The diocese addressed these allegations of misconduct directly with Mitchell during his time of ministry in the Diocese of Lincoln.”

Mitchell was a seminarian in the Lincoln diocese from 1994 to 1999, and eventually transferred to Diocese of Green Bay, Wisconsin. He was laicized in 2017 for breaking his vow of celibacy on multiple occasions.

In his article Mitchell described how he’d been drawn to Lincoln like many other seminarians because of its reputation for maintaining orthodoxy and traditionalism amid the Church’s modernist tilt in recent decades.

But he said what he found there was abusive authority in Kalin, a gambling and alcohol-fueled environment for the seminarians, and himself a fish out of water as a heterosexual.

Upon arrival Mitchell said he was introduced to Kalin, vocations director for Lincoln and pastor of the Newman Center at the University of Nebraska from 1970-1998, during the tenure of two bishops with strong reputations for orthodoxy (the late Glennon Flavin, 1967-1992, and Fabian Bruskewitz, 1992-2002).

Kalin, who had also been on the advisory board for the diocese’s St. Gregory the Great Seminary, had an orthodox reputation as well, and shared credit for the Lincoln diocese’s substantial vocations numbers.

But according to Mitchell, Kalin took park in sexual immorality and modeled addictive behaviors for the Lincoln seminarians and students at the Newman Center.

Detailing various scenarios orchestrated by Kalin allowing for advances to be made on seminarians, including among other things, helping him shower or accompanying him on trips to Las Vegas, Mitchell said that declining Kalin’s invitations would net a seminarian poor treatment.

Mitchell reported that another seminarian questioned his loyalty to Kalin after Mitchell had complained about the situation to the bishop at the time, also saying that he did not get a response to his grievance from the bishop.

Catholic News Agency (CNA) covered the August 1 statement from the Diocese of Lincoln. JD Flynn, editor-in-chief for CNA is the former communications director for the Lincoln diocese. Flynn posted on Twitter Wednesday morning that he was recusing himself from CNA’s coverage of Mitchell’s allegations.

Lincoln Bishop James Conley acknowledged Mitchell’s allegations in his August 3 column.

Both Conley and the diocese via its statement invited anyone with information or concerns about past or current sexual immorality in any diocesan-related body to contact the diocese’s Office of Child and Youth Protection, and in cases that may be criminal, for them to reach out to a national abuse hotline or law enforcement.

Cast against the backdrop of disgraced former Cardinal Theodore McCarrick - the subject of recently exposed reports of years of predatory sexual behavior toward young boys, seminarians and priests - Mitchell presented his experience with Kalin as indicative of the larger problem of homosexuality in the Catholic clergy and related power networks in the Church.

“I experienced profound discrimination as a seminarian and later as a priest because I was a heterosexual in an overwhelmingly homosexual environment where sexually active gay priests protected and promoted each other,” Mitchell wrote. “The experience of this homosexual atmosphere – at times overt, at times closeted – is felt across the board by heterosexual priests I know in numerous different dioceses and religious orders.”

“It is ‘everywhere’ within the Catholic clergy,” he continued, “but seems to be especially prevalent among priests within the power structure of chanceries, seminaries, and the church’s bureaucracy, up to and including the Holy See, where I served for a brief time in 2008-2009.”

Mitchell drew a clear parallel between the McCarrick scandal and his experience in Lincoln with Kalin – including the reported pay for play power network where those who went along were promoted and those who didn’t living in fear of retaliation should they speak up.

“I know so many good, generous men who serve as priests there and elsewhere who live in fear of church authority and who remain silent about Kalin’s abuse because they know that Kalin’s protégés and protectors hold the reins of ecclesiastical power,” he said. “The power of Kalin’s “friends” exactly mirrors that of McCarrick’s ‘friends.’”

“The difference of course is that McCarrick rose in the Church to the level of cardinal,” Mitchell added. “But within their own ‘kingdoms’ each of these men rewarded those who complied with their wishes. This power structure remains intact. How many other McCarricks and Kalins are there in how many other dioceses and religious orders in the United States?”

Subsequently on Wednesday Dreher published a post with feedback on Mitchell’s op-ed.

Some respondents disputed Mitchell’s account of Kalin and the environment for seminarians in the Diocese of Lincoln at the time, a few in significant detail.

Moral theologian Professor Janet Smith had posted the article on her Facebook page testifying to Mitchell’s character, having had him as a student at the University of Dallas.

“Few things in this whole mess have saddened me more than this testimony,” Smith wrote. “He didn’t need to write this. God bless him!”

A priest commenting on Smith’s post, Father Timothy Ferguson, reported experiencing the gambling and alcohol-heavy party environment that Mitchell described at Lincoln while Ferguson himself was visiting there as a prospective seminarian. After expressing his concerns about this to Kalin, he said, Kalin informed Ferguson later that day that he didn’t think Ferguson was traditional enough for the diocese of Lincoln. 

Mitchell took responsibility for his own failings in his article and expressed regret.

“My own life as a priest was undoubtedly affected by the totally inadequate and abusive formation I received in terms of preparing me for a healthy life as a celibate heterosexual male,” he wrote. “I lived an unhealthy life as a priest, and I hurt people. I never intended to become such a person, but I did. What I did was wrong. I deeply regret having hurt people who looked up to me as a spiritual leader, and I take full responsibility for my actions.”

He added, however, that “the people to whom my seminary formation was entrusted modeled addictive behavior to me and an entire generation of young men who are now priests.”

Mitchell noted that this culture of fear, shame and secrecy exists within the “traditional” Church just as much as it does in the “progressive” Church, and “must be exposed and broken if the Church is to truly move forward.”

He said that his motive in voicing his experience was to help the Church heal by hopefully paving the way for others - especially other priests – to find the courage and freedom to speak up as well.

In another later update from Thursday Dreher mentioned that some had said he and Mitchell should apologize for impugning Kalin’s character with groundless claims, but he noted that Conley and the diocese have acknowledged Kalin was not above reproach. He said that multiple people with personal experience have told him that toward the end of Kalin’s life the diocese required students who were going to visit him do so in pairs, not alone, and that no explanation was given for this at the time.

Dreher noted, having covered abuse cases for some time, that it is possible for some people close to a situation to have no idea what’s occurring.

His post then detailed several accounts since brought to his attention corroborating Mitchell’s account of sexual corruption, homosexuality within the clergy, and a priest who reported abusive behavior toward an altar boy being forced to serve under the pastor he reported and ordered into silence about the matter - the pastor a protege of Kalin’s.

Mitchell has been back in touch with Dreher during the fallout from his article to point out that good priests who have done nothing wrong also suffer in the abuse crisis when they are forced to be silent about clerical wrongdoing.

“What Kalin did is not about me having ‘sour grapes’ against a man who is long-deceased,” he told Dreher. “This is about young men and young priests RIGHT NOW who are being abused. I REFUSE TO BE SILENT ABOUT ABUSE THAT IS OCCURRING AS WE SPEAK. That is why I have spoken.”

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Judge rules human embryo ‘property’ of ex-wife in divorce case

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By Lianne Laurence

SUDBURY, Ontario, August 4, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) — An Ontario judge ruled a frozen human embryo that a now-divorced Canadian couple bought in the United States is the “property” of the ex-wife in what experts say is a precedent for future cases.

But Catholic bioethicist Moira McQueen blasted the ruling as a “grave error in law” and an “error in fact” because Canada prohibits — so far — the buying and selling of human eggs and sperm.

Indeed, Superior Court Justice Robert Del Frate noted this when commenting on the precedent-setting case, but said no one raised that legal conflict, Canadian Press reported.

In a decision released Wednesday, Del Frate wrote he relied on contract law because “there is no law on point that has considered how to dispose of embryos when neither party has a biological connection to the embryos.”

The case involves a couple, identified in court documents as D.H. and S.H., who married in 2009 and in 2012 paid $11,500 US to an American facility to conceive four human embryos from donated eggs and sperm. Two of the embryos were viable and sent to a Mississauga fertility clinic, according to Canadian Press.

After one embryo was implanted in D.H., she gave birth to a son, while the other embryo remained frozen in storage. The couple separated eight days after the boy was born and rancorous divorce proceedings followed, CBC reported.

Del Frate awarded the embryo to D.H., now 48, based on the contract the couple signed at the Canadian fertility clinic, according to CBC. It stipulated the clinic would respect the “patient’s wishes” in the event of divorce, and defined the wife as the patient.

The couple clearly regarded the embryos as property, with both signing the contracts, and planned to own them jointly, Del Frate wrote.

“It would be contrary to contract law were I to decide that the wishes of the parties at the time of entering into this contract were other than what they agreed to. One cannot apply buyer's remorse,” he observed.

“As it is not possible to simply split the embryo and it cannot be sold and the proceeds divided, ownership must be determined based on the agreements and the parties’ intentions.”

The judge calculated the four embryos were worth $2,875 US each, and awarded S.H. $1,438 for his half-share in the remaining one.

“It is the first time, to the best of my knowledge, where a judge came out and explicitly stated that an embryo should be treated as property,”  Toronto-based lawyer Sara Cohen, who specializes in fertility issues, told Canadian Press.

But in this case, the embryo had no genetic connection to the couple, she said.

“The decision we’re waiting for is what happens when people do have a genetic connection to the embryo – is it still possible to treat an embryo like property,” Cohen said.

Bioethicist McQueen decried the “utilitarian approach to early human life” that the judgement “illustrated vividly.”

“A human embryo should never be treated as property to be bought and sold, nor argued over in court,” she told LifeSiteNews in an email.

The director of the Canadian Catholic Bioethics Center and professor of moral theology at the Toronto School of Theology, McQueen says the judge got it wrong.

“In saying the woman had to pay her share of the costs of obtaining the embryo, the Canadian judge is making a grave error in law (Canadian) and then makes an error in fact, in calling the embryo ‘property’ to justify this,” she wrote.

Canada “does not allow sale of gametes, etc., not that I think making embryos is right in the first place,” she noted, adding the Royal Commission on Reproductive Technologies, and the 2004 Assisted Human Reproduction Act, grant the embryo “a measure of respect because it is human life, and cannot therefore be bought and sold (legally).”

Del Frate “is probably accurate in the court of popular opinion in stating that an embryo is property, but Parliament (or the Supreme Court!) would have to change this to make it so, legally,” added McQueen.

Unfortunately, Parliament seems poised to do just that.

Liberal MP Anthony Housefather introduced a private member’s bill in May to decriminalize commercial surrogacy and the buying and selling of human gametes (eggs and sperm).

Chair of the House of Commons Access to the Justice System committee, Housefather defended Bill C-404 on the grounds of “liberty.”

“There is a right to make choices about what one chooses to do with their body. There is a right not to have the state prevent you from seeking to have a child through the sanction of criminal law,” he told reporters at the time.

His bill would prohibit women under 21 years from being surrogates, and those under 18 from donating or selling gametes.

The Association for Reformed Political Action Canada (ARPA Canada) blasted Housefather’s bill as undermining human dignity, and is urging Canadians to write MPs to oppose Housefather’s bill.

Surrogacy commodifies women’s procreative capacities, commodifies children, and is banned around the world as evidence mounts that exploits women, particularly the poor and vulnerable, ARPA Canada noted.

For more information on ARPA Canada’s campaign against Bill C-404, go here.

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Anchorage Archbishop Paul Etienne
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Archbishop: US Bishops ‘have lost the trust of many of our priests and people’

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By Lisa Bourne

ANCHORAGE, Alaska, August 4, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) – The Catholic bishops of the U.S. have by and large lost the trust of lay Catholics, the Archbishop Paul Etienne of Anchorage wrote on his blog this week.

Addressing the renewed fury over the sex abuse scandal owing to revelations about now-former Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, Archbishop Etienne said that the bishops had better be smart in how they act now if they hope to rebuild the trust they lost.

“I believe it is accurate to say that most regular, church-attending Catholics still trust their priests, who minister and serve the People of God faithfully,” Etienne wrote. “The same can no longer be said of bishops. We have lost the trust of many of our priests and people, and we must act wisely in the face of this present challenge in the hopes of regaining that trust.”

Etienne also said bishops should be answerable in the Church’s sex abuse scandal.

Many people among priests, laity and the hierarchy are wondering how McCarrick or any bishop could rise to the rank of the episcopacy, the archbishop said, let alone to become a cardinal in the Church.

“How could such misbehavior not be known and addressed, let alone be overlooked to allow any priest to become a bishop, archbishop or cardinal?” he asked. “Indeed, the Body of Christ is hurting.”

The archdioceses of New York and Newark, and the diocese of Metuchen revealed in June that former Cardinal, now Archbishop Theodore McCarrick was the subject of credible and substantiated allegations of abuse of a minor. Since then, additional allegations against McCarrick and others in the U.S. Catholic Church have surfaced, along with reports that McCarrick’s reputation for abuse of seminarians and young priests was a well-known “secret” that didn’t impede McCarrick from rising to cardinal, and facilitating others’ rising in Church ranks as well.

Catholic laity continue to ask who knew about McCarrick and when they knew it, as well as who participated in covering it up.

Meanwhile a number of Church prelates whose history intertwines with McCarrick have publicly denied knowing anything about the scandal; this, while two out of three other previous allegations against McCarrick involving adults resulted in financial settlements to the accusers, coming from two of McCarrick’s former sees.

Pope Francis accepted McCarrick’s resignation from the College of Cardinals, though after more than a month following McCarrick’s removal from public ministry in June.

McCarrick, who has said he doesn’t recall the circumstances surrounding the allegations concerning a minor more than 40 years ago, has been ordered to a life of prayer and penance at an undisclosed location until he faces a canonical trial.

The U.S. Bishops issued a statement some six weeks after the McCarrick revelations saying the accusations “reveal a grievous moral failure within the Church,” and promising to get to the bottom of the matter.

USCCB President Cardinal Daniel DiNardo said the USCCB Executive Committee would be convened and that this and other meetings among the Bishops would focus on “discerning the right course of action for the USCCB.”

Many Catholic continue to remain skeptical that the widespread crisis of sexual abuse within the Church and its accompanying cover-up will be authentically addressed.

Archbishop Etienne suggested a number of things that depart from previous protocol, including holding bishops accountable for how accusations are handled against any Church employee – not just priests.

Further, he said, “The USCCB did not go far enough in the Dallas Charter by not holding cardinals and bishops accountable to the same standards as priests and deacons who are accused of sexual misconduct with minors. This requires a prompt and firm correction.”

The Charter established after the abuse scandal first broke in 2002 has been criticized for only applying to priests and not holding bishops accountable.

Etienne also called for a review board for accusations of sexual misconduct against bishops, with lay representation and the papal nuncio’s involvement. The board’s findings would be forwarded to the Holy See, and in the interest of transparency, the board would make its recommendations public within 60 days of submission to the Vatican if no public action or the competent authority has taken response.

Aside from augmenting the process for reviewing accusations against bishops, Etienne said the situation presents a call to all members of the Church to renew the pursuit of holiness.

“At its core, we are facing a spiritual crisis, and these times call us to renew our life in and our witness to Jesus Christ,” he said. “While bishops are called to govern effectively, we have an even greater responsibility to lead holy lives, and to help our brothers and sisters entrusted to our pastoral care to do the same.”

“This is not a moment to bury our heads in the sand,” the archbishop said, rather, “a time appointed by God – to acknowledge the grave and pressing responsibility that now lies before us.”

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Church at ‘crisis moment’ that demands ‘serious pain and soul searching’: EWTN panel

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By Doug Mainwaring
 

WASHINGTON, DC, August 4, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) – A wide ranging discussion on EWTN Thursday about the Archbishop McCarrick scandal elicited strong statements from canon lawyer Fr. Gerald Murray, Catholic author and publisher Robert Royal, and Raymond Arroyo, host of the Catholic station’s The World Over.

The Vatican removed McCarrick from public ministry several weeks ago and then from the College of Cardinals, due to credible reports of decades of predatory sexual behavior toward young seminarians and boys.  Substantial sums of money were paid to victims in order to secure their silence.  Meanwhile, bishops and cardinals who were former close colleagues of McCarrick have denied all knowledge of his illicit activities, raising questions both about cover ups and a lack of fraternity among our bishops in the United States.

“This is very, very troubling because it shows that the secrecy and the power and the wealth of the Catholic Church were being used to basically keep an immoral man in a position of power,” said Fr. Murray.  “Having done these things, he should’ve resigned in shame.  He should not have stayed in power, and yet after he left [as] the Archbishop of Washington he continued traveling the world as a representative of the Church.  Very troubling.  Lots of questions need to be answered.”

Sexual abuse by prelates is not confined to the U.S.  Bishops in Austria, Chile, Honduras, and Italy recently have been under investigation for similar scandalous homosexual abuse of younger Catholic males.

“The Church, at some point, is going to have to do public penance for this,” said Robert Royal.  “If it were up to me, instead of having a World Meeting on Families in Ireland,” later this month, “I would have a public procession of penitents for sexual sin committed against minors and against seminarians and others around the world.”   

“The Church is in a crisis at this moment,” Royal continued.  “And it’s going to get worse.  It’s sad to say this, but it’s going to get worse, because it’s the ‘MeToo’ moment––or the ‘HeToo’ moment––in the church and it’s going to involve some very serious pain and some soul searching, but there is no alternative.  The alternative is business as usual, and business as usual is going to lead to bankruptcy.”

Secret machinations

“I think the spectacle of a Cardinal of the Catholic Church being revealed to be a child molester was just stunning,” said Fr. Murray.  And what then came out subsequently that three dioceses in New Jersey had paid off secretly two adults who were also abused by ex-Cardinal McCarrick that those payoffs amounting to $180,000 were made on behalf of the sitting archbishop of Washington at the time.”

“Now Cardinal Wuerl has said the archdiocese was never informed of these payouts so basically what we have is behind the scenes secret machinations,” continued Murray.  “There were confidentiality agreements demanded of the victims.  All of this type of stuff was supposed to end after 2002 when the Boston scandal led to the Dallas Charter.  We’re not supposed to be protecting powerful people with the parishioners’ money, paying off people and silencing them.”

“We look like an institution that cannot manage its own house,” he added.  

Stop allowing bishops to exempt themselves

“What we’re seeing here, now, is that the same rules that have been applied to priests need to be applied to bishops who either covered up abuse by those that were under their authority, or themselves, as in the case of McCarrick committed abuses,” said Royal.

“Laicization is important, [they should] pay reparations, that would be only just under the circumstances, but I would go even further,” continued Royal.  “I think that like priests who get caught doing what they shouldn’t do, bishops, archbishops, cardinals who are … discovered to have committed what are crimes should all be referred to secular authorities.”

“Otherwise it appears we’re not really serious,” he added.  

“If a pastor commits these crimes, he’s off the job,” said Murray. “If a bishop commits these crimes, people are paid off and told to be quiet.  This is unjust.”

Time for a Tribunal

The Holy Father “should appoint a tribunal, meaning a judge or a panel of judges, as a special tribunal for the United States, with full authority to look at every document in every chancery and every religious congregation house, regarding sexual abuse and financial irregularities associated with it,” said Fr. Murray.

“Bishops should be compelled by this authority to answer the questions of hired experts,” he said.  “In other words, the tribunal should basically put the work of investigating and coming up with information in the hands of competent people––that means private investigators, lawyers, all the rest.  They can compile the documentation, and the judges should have the power to make decisions.”  

“And this should all be made public in the sense that their findings should not be ‘kept in the closet, and the Pope will decide well maybe, maybe not,’” Murray added. “ No!  If someone is found guilty of using Church money to cover up the sexual crimes of bishops or clergy, they should be out.”  

McCarrick needs to do penance

McCarrick “should have never accepted being a bishop or a cardinal,” asserted Murray, yet, “he went ahead and did this in a reckless manner which disposes the Church now to this opprobrium, all to satisfy his lust, his power.  It’s a horrible thing.  He needs to do penance.  It’s not enough for him to resign from the College of Cardinals.  He should tell the Pope he’s sorry.  He should resign from the priesthood, he should turn over every dime he has in the bank to the victims.  He should repay those dioceses.  I mean, his soul is important.  I want him to go to heaven, but he has to display real repentance.”

Other priests and religious are “horrified”

“The good people of the Church and the rest of Americans following this story need to know that most priests, most religious, most sisters, have nothing to do with these crimes,” said Fr. Murray.  “They are horrified by it.  The Catholic Church in the United States is not made of a cabal of criminals.  They are a small group of people doing it.  They have a lot of power unfortunately.  But, we need to support our good priests, nuns and brothers by praying for them.”

“In 2002, the bishops said they were going to clean up the mess,” continued Murray.  “Well, they didn’t.  So now the bishops have to say, ‘This mess is going to be cleaned up by someone else, and we’re going to cooperate with them.’”

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